We publish here the chat log from our second "Ask The Joomla Team" Session.
Next Session will be happen on 5th May 2010 20 UTC with Louis Landry and Andrew Eddie.
How Can You Join Ask the Joomla Team
You can meet us in the #joomla-ask-the-team chat room on irc.freenode.net
One very easy way to join is to visit this link: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#joomla-ask-the-team
Chat log
- jasonhando
hello
- daniib
Hello
- elinw
hi
- daniib
Hi
how are you?
- elinw
good
- jasonhando
this is my first meet the team
- elinw
welcome1
- daniib
mine too!
- jasonhando
hope it isn't over my head
- elinw
cool
where are you from?
- jasonhando
i feel like i have gone back to days at uni using unix with this irc
- elinw
yeah
- jasonhando
I am from Sydney
- elinw
great
how about you ?
- jasonhando
from?
- elinw
New york
- jasonhando
where u from ?
- elinw
uh oh is coming
- daniib
Sydney too
- Trouble
Ho ho
- louislandry
- jasonhando
ny is my favourite city... after sydney of course
- elinw
beautiful morning here
- jasonhando
nice night here
- louislandry
It is too early to be beautiful
- elinw
lol sleepy head
- Andy[0]
i'll be back in 20-30mins, will check logs later
- elinw
wave to andy
- rvsjoen
eat fast
g'day peoples
- daniib
Hi
- elinw
see louis predicted we get Europe at this time
but apparently it's Australia
- louislandry
OK, off the top... its easier for everyone involved if we do one question at a time
- elinw
Ok so i guess it's the witching hour
yeah
- louislandry
so please if you can manage it ... (and even if you cannot) let's try to do that
- elinw
Any other advice?
- louislandry
Who has the first question?
Let's get this party started
- jasonhando
raise hand
- elinw
+++
- louislandry
fire away
- jasonhando
ok
so
will there be diff in 1.6 templating?
- elinw
ha, code
- jasonhando
like there was bw 1.0 and 1.5?
- elinw
not as big
- louislandry
There are two main things different between 1.0 and 1.5 with templates
- elinw
there are some differences but i've been working on keepin milkyway functional and t isn't that bad
kepp oing
- louislandry
1) We have added the notion of template styles. This won't affect how you build templates, but it will give your users more power to create multiple "configurations" or styles of each template.
- elinw
styles are fantastic
- jasonhando
sounds interestg
- elinw
in 1.5 you couldn't change the styles on your defualt template without copying
- louislandry
2) The core layouts are changing their markup to be more semantic and concise.
1 won't affect how you make templates really
- elinw
the paramter settings
- louislandry
2 might
- elinw
yes
- louislandry
because it will affect the CSS selectors that are available and used by default for elements on the page
- elinw
in 1.6 .. say with milkkyway ... you can use red and blue
yes
- JoomlaWorks
Hello folks
- elinw
we will try to make a mapping
- nikosdion
Louis, will template styles be assignable per menu item, unlike what's possible w/ Joomla! 1.5 templates?
- louislandry
beyond that, its pretty much the same
- elinw
yes
we already have that in sample data
- jasonhando
thnx for answer to my question
- louislandry
yes
- elinw
ok another question ...
- JoomlaWorks
What is this discussion supposed to cover? (so we stay on topic)
- louislandry
Joomla
- elinw
whatever people ask
ok yeah
- JoomlaWorks
ok
- elinw
no physics
- louislandry
Though the main thing is ... let's keep it one question at a time
so its easy to follow
- AndrewEddie
I can do physics
- bill_
joomla 1.6 release date?
- louislandry
ya i don't have a big problem with physics
- elinw
well it's off topic though
- JoomlaWorks
Joomla everything or 1.5 or 1.6 in particular?
- louislandry
ah, fair point
- elinw
bil_ did you see andrew's email?
- elinw
where they announced eature freeze may 5
- JoomlaWorks
Johan, come on, decide on a nickname dude
- louislandry
We do not have a 1.6 release date yet.
- elinw
iti's software
- johanjanssens
lost his password
- elinw
so one step at a time
let's get beta out
- nikosdion
Will there be a big enough beta period for 1.6 so that 3PD can adapt their software?
- rvsjoen
not even a rough estimation, as in 'this year' ?
- elinw
oh yeah
heh johan
- JoomlaWorks
@johan
- bill_
will comments be in beta release
- elinw
maybe andrew should answer that one?
- louislandry
why?
- AndrewEddie
I'm not on duty
- elinw
he's been working really hard and you can see in the omments branch
well just saying
you want to answer?
- louislandry
Comments will make it into the beta release if we can get it done, complete and working by the feature branch freeze date
which is 5 May 2010
soon.
if it isn't, then it will not make the beta
- elinw
or at least beta1
if you are following the comments branch
- louislandry
no, if it isn't done then it won't be in 1.6
how's that for clarity
- elinw
which ... i really think th branchs are where the actioh is
- louislandry
we are pretty confident it will be done though
- elinw
it's a pretty huge undertaking
- bill_
how can we all help with bug testing after release
- |ironman|
away At work.
- elinw
ok i can talk about jbs
- louislandry
ok
- elinw
so after beta and we switch to bugs
jbs is the place to be if you want to help
of course, anyone can hit the tracker and report issues or put in patches
- K2Joom
Hi Team
- elinw
and you can join the jbs mailing list
so ... the way the process works in bug testing is that we have :
reporting
confirming
fixing
testing
and anyone can help at any point in thre
- JoomlaWorks
How long does the team officially plan to support 1.5 in case 1.6 is rolled out in 2010 or early 2011?
it's important
- bill_
few templates have been included in the nighty so will any more mahe the beta version
- JoomlaWorks
because if it's supported for some time
there are little things here and there that we can fix in 1.5
- elinw
hang on ... i s that nough about helping with bugs?
- elinw
?
- elinw
ok, louis you want to take 1.5 support?
- louislandry
Our plan is to support 1.5 for one year after the GA release of 1.6
- snellcode
: whats the url to get started with jbs?
- JoomlaWorks
@louis So there is room for small additions and changes in 1.5, right?
- elinw
ok either the tracker or the mailing list,
- jools
Title: Joomla! bug Squad | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
- JoomlaWorks
@louis I'm not talking changes like new features, but enhancements, e.g. Menu Manager ordering in the backend, cache improvements, better CDN support etc.
- elinw
hop in there and we'll get you started
- bill_
example templates 1.6?
- louislandry
That would be generally up to the JBS, as while it is in maintenance mode they make decisions about what gets committed to the code base. My suggestion would be if you have suggestions etc for improvement you hop in the JBS channel or join their mailing list and go from ther.
- elinw
yes beez2 is not win trunk
now
now intrunk
- louislandry
I personally don't have an issue with that sort of stuff though
- elinw
well jbs tends to be conservatice
oh i forgot to say too about bugs
that helpingwith test ocverage is huge
- MichaelC
nothing wrong with a conservative jbs
- elinw
if you have that skill set, either functional or unit that will really help
ya
- _Klas
conservative..just not in 1.6.16 case
- elinw
we have millions of funcitoning sites
- elinw
unit tests will help us catch things like php 4 compatibility
- K2Joom
Will all modules, templates etc have to be coded for 1.6, sry late to the party
- elinw
which thank goodness we don't need for 1.6
- hils
hello so JBS also covers enhancement decisions and not just bugs?
- elinw
no
well you know one persons bug is another person's feature
- louislandry
JBS covers any code base that is in maintenance mode
- elinw
that's the nature of software
- louislandry
as of right now, that is 1.5.x
OK, next question
- elinw
so ... louis, if something is coded joomla style for 1.5 ... for 1.6
they need to incorporate ACL
and if you're using sections you need to cope with that
what else?
personally i think you'll want to switch to jform but you won't have to
- nikosdion
If I might, this also includes other APIs, like component parameters. We need to know if they're going to change.
- louislandry
I don't know off the top of my head, I suspect that is something we will be discovering in the short term
- bill_
any k2 features planned for future releases
- elinw
it would be great if some people would start testing that and helpingto document
- K2Joom
will 1.6 be incorporating any of the current extensions that are available on the market, to make core more stable, secure, functionally better? such as k2
- nikosdion
@ We could test that, but we need some rough guidance as to the changes made
- elinw
yeah i get it
- AndrewEddie
XML installer files will need to change to as a minimum
- elinw
yes
- nikosdion
@Andrew So much I've figured, but is there any list of changes, or I just have to go through the code while bug fixing my extensions?
- elinw
one thing they did with 1.6 is make the core extensions really complete, so they have manifests etc
- K2Joom
is always ready to help test for joomla
- elinw
+++
- louislandry
There are a handful of things that have changed, but it isn't drastic. I suggest you checkout a copy of trunk and see.
- AndrewEddie
: not ready, but I expect by Beta2 we'll have one
- elinw
i think there is a lot of great work you can take advantage of but you don't have to
- nikosdion
Louis, Andrew, thanks! So far I'm checking out the trunk on a weekly basis.
- louislandry
What was the next question?
- jennifermarriott
There are two questions regarding K2
- louislandry
Oh... the "k2 features"
- louislandry
We don't have specific plans to mimic any features of K2, but that doesn't mean that features K2 offers won't end up in the core. I expect there will absolutely be some overlap into the future.
- bill_
any chance of a 1,6 structure diagram like eddie has for 1.5
- louislandry
If fotis wanted to work on a branch getting some features merged into the core he can certainly do that, and we can look at merging that down to trunk when its complete, and working.
Same is true of anyone
- elinw
Anyone can ask for a branch
@ If someone makes it
- louislandry
In fact, IIRC Fotis was given one with Amy and Stian some months ago
- Andy[0]
is acccesibility intentionally low on admin control on 1.6?
- elinw
Hopefully Andy tarr's template gets in
Andy it's not intentional obviously
- louislandry
lol
- elinw
the focus was on th front end layouts
- Andy[0]
i.e. link title tags, access keys, article title meta control all seem to be missing?
- louislandry
I'd use the word incomplete
- elinw
good
- louislandry
not "intentionally low"
- Andy[0]
what I meant was, has it been taken out of dev on a vote? or is it just missed?
- elinw
no just missed as of now
but if someone wants to work on it, i'm sure that's welcome
- louislandry
absolutely
- Andy[0]
I currently have to patch Joomla everytime I build as we run a lot of AAA standard websites
- elinw
andrea has done great works
- Andy[0]
the code already exists for 1.5
- Andy[0]
Just isn't in core
- louislandry
Next time you do that, why not submit that patch to the issue tracker
- elinw
Andy can you put code in the tracker?
- jennifermarriott
that would be nice to put on the 1.5 tracker Andy as something for people to test
- elinw
yes
- louislandry
so hopefully you don't have to keep doing it
- Andy[0]
That would be really nice
It is one of the baines of using Joomla
- elinw
accessibility is a core value but we haven't done enough ... but i think 1.6 actually is a real advance
- louislandry
OK, next question?
- elinw
th front is really well thought out that way and Angie has been on top of it
- elinw
And Andrea's template, reallly powerful
- Andy[0]
if I hand out my patch for 1.5, any of you have time to convert to 1.6? I'm about to move this weekend so will not have internet for ~2 weeks
- elinw
we'll try
- K2Joom
I hate to compare against Wordpress, but backend functionality could learn some lessons from them.
- nikosdion
Louis, will Administrators still be able to install extensions in 1.6.? If so, can we use ACL to prevent them from doing so? (The ACL stuff in 1.6 is still a bit mystifying for me)
- bill_
anyone working on milkway
- elinw
yes you can
- Andy[0]
: including custom fields, and template assignment on an article basis?
- elinw
in what sense?
- louislandry
@all ... one at a time please
- elinw
- louislandry
otherwise it gets difficult for everyone to follow
- louislandry
: do what you can, when you can.
: Yes, you will be able to choose which user groups have the ability to install extensions in 1.6
- bill_
milkway has not been changed much for 1.6
- nikosdion
Perfect
- elinw
it hasn't needed much
i updated it to use the same positions as the new templates
and it's had someo ther work in the xml etc
- hils
will Update Manager or equivalent be available in 1.6?
- elinw
but the goal is just to keep it funcitoning as it is in 1.5
- louislandry
the purpose of milkyway in 1.6 is to be the "legacy" template with layout overrides that as closely match the 1.5 markup as possible
- Little^John
Regarding ACL .. Will 1.6 force some kinds of standards for ext., so ACL can be used throughout all components? (thinking of backend only)
- louislandry
1.6 will have an ability to update extensions out of the box.
- hils
excellent
- louislandry
There really isn't a way to "force" coding standards for extensions, but the ACL stuff is systemic, and it most certainly can be used throughout all extensions.
- elinw
i think it needs to be, isn't that right?
- Andy[0]
Has joomla 1.6 got rid of the ominous position names, user1/2/3 ?
- elinw
you at least need those lines, which aren't much
yes
- elinw
well remember position names come from templates
- Andy[0]
Yes, but are the default build tempaltes "setting the trend" ?
- elinw
so after a lot of discussion what we did in the smaple data
is to use totally generic names i.e. positin-1 position-2 etc
- parthlawate
Hi All .. hope i am not too late.. joining from a train
- elinw
i think we have 12
because the people doing templates wanted more more more positions
which you can see in beez2
- bill_
is anyone else contributing templates to 1.6 release
- Andy[0]
I wanted to, but I was told I am too late
- louislandry
So far the only one in a branch was beez2
and it was merged down into trunk (partially) earlier in the week.
- elinw
well and atomic but that's not for production
yes
if you install it's used in the parks sample site
- Andy[0]
I wanted to get my desktop template as an alternative admin template into 1.6 build, it's in a branch atm
- louislandry
If other templates are added to branches before the 5 May 2010 cutoff then they will certainly be considered for 1.6
Ah, I was talking about frontend templates, sorry
- Andy[0]
ah, ok.
- elinw
it's always a tradeoff between weiight of the package and the desire to add stuff
- Andy[0]
Yeah I've tried to get Joomla team to create a "lightweight" package as well
- elinw
with this template project for JSOP
- Andy[0]
one that has only minimum core (no additional components)
- Little^John
Will there be an Alpha 3 or Beta 1 soon?
- Andy[0]
and the code is compressed
- elinw
I at least am hoping that we will get a bunch of great templates easily installable
- louislandry
We will not do an alpha3 ... and we do expect a beta1 soon
- elinw
and we can put a link to that site right in the backcend
- Andy[0]
I know this is for 1.6, but is there an area for talks on 1.7 yet (i.e. a google group, or in the forums?)
- m4co
so If I want to donate a template admin for J 1.6, all I have to do is create a branch ?
- louislandry
I see no reason why we can't talk about 1.7 on the mailing lists
- elinw
no promises on anything
- m4co
I'm not asking for promisses, maybe I should rephrase it
- elinw
Andy there has been some 1.7 talk already on list
one week to feature freeze
- Andy[0]
: I was told admin templates will not be added
- m4co
ah what a pitty
- Andy[0]
told me that about my template atleast, and I believe to adminpraise as well
- elinw
well if hathor, the accessible template, is beta ready it will go in i think
- m4co
: you're the one who did that jquery admin template, right ?
- Andy[0]
yeah
- m4co
very nice work
- Andy[0]
it now works perfectly with mootools
so no compat issues
1.5 version is almost exiting beta
- elinw
but look, the beauty of joomla is it take 3 minutes to download and install a template
- Andy[0]
and 1.6 is at beta 0.2
- m4co
: who provided hathor ?
I'm working on a accessible template called Minima, I shared on the list before
- elinw
that's the andrea tarr fsoc projcet
- louislandry
Generally speaking yes that is it. If there are any improvements that anyone wants to make, the same thing holds true whether it is a template or an extension or improvements to the existing functionality... then you just need to make sure it is complete, working and up to date and we can consider it.
- elinw
why put up a link to it the other day on list
- Andy[0]
: this why I suggested a download mechanism like this:
- jools
Title: jQuery UI - Configure your download (at jqueryui.com)
- hils
if links to front end templates will be available in admin then links to admin templates could be available too?
- Andy[0]
for Joomla, so there is a maximum/minimum build size
- m4co
: and the last day for that is May 5th when there will be the branch freeze ?
- louislandry
for 1.6 yes
but you can still work on things like that in branches
and as soon as 1.6 is released GA
we will start looking at merging for 1.7
- rvsjoen
does the branch freeze imply a transition to beta ?
- louislandry
yes
- elinw
yes
- louislandry
its a first step
- Andy[0]
Can i get my 1.6 folder in my branch moved over to the 1.6 branch?
- rvsjoen
nice
- louislandry
I don't know what that means
- elinw
Sam could probably help with that
- Sander
Will Joomla 1.6 also have ACL for the content of the media manager? (I don't mean the access to the media manager itself but for the files and folders in the media manager)
- louislandry
no.
- elinw
no
- bill_
why strange chars in new forms
- elinw
the only thing that granular is articles as far as i know
- rvsjoen
speaking of media manager, does the 1.6 media manager pack the same media manager as 1.5 or has there been development on that end as well
- luscarpa
Hi all, I'm Luca form Italy, I have a question about Mootools, today Mootools Team has released 1.3 beta1, I know that is a beta, but probably we have a stable release with stable version of j1.6, there is a plan to integrate and test it?
- m4co
: good question +
- Sander
that's a pity, feature plans on this?
- louislandry
We will certainly be looking at and workign with the mootools team to get the latest version (1.3) into 1.6
- elinw
3pds can exppose it
- Andy[0]
On a similiar subject, can we get a copy of jquery & jqueryUI into the JS lib in core?
- louislandry
I'll probably be talking with aaron and valerio in the next couple of days about it
- elinw
and work oni implementng
- louislandry
: no, probably not.
- elinw
ok so can we do one question at a time
- Andy[0]
sorry, I'll wait.
- luscarpa
this is a good news
- elinw
about the acl ... louis correct me if i'm wrong please, but can't 3pds work wit hthe api to extend it to more granualar
- m4co
off I go, thanks and for the answers. bye everyone
- louislandry
The 1.6 media manager is very very similar to the 1.5 one. No one found it interesting enough or important enough to really work on it evidently.
- m4co
: will check your template later
- nikosdion
Will a (far) future version of Joomla! support storing files uploaded to the Media Manager in a CDN, e.g. Amazon CloudFront?
- louislandry
There is no way to extend the ACL system to work with files managed by the media manager because they are not currently tracked in the database as far as i know.
- elinw
true
but in other components
- louislandry
: if someone builds it, maybe
Look its important to remember that all of the questions about what "might" be in future versions of joomla depend greatly on what people like you and me decide they want to work on.
- Andy[0]
: Is there a reason why not? (re:jquery/jqueryUI) It would mean people are not tied down to 1 JS library, I have proven mootools and jquery can work alongside each other in harmony
- nikosdion
Lousi, thanks. It's something I was considering for the near future, I wanted to make sure it's not something already in progress.
- Little^John
, some components does this. Eg. Jomsocial has options for Amazon.. (its not the same, I know, but related)
- nikosdion
I know
- louislandry
I'd love to see work done on the media manager... it needs lots of love ... so if you are intersted please jump into a branch and make some magic
- elinw
i think a number of peopl have implemented amazon solutions
yes
but no one in a branch
- nikosdion
Louis, will do, once I get the hang of 1.6's code.
- bill_
how do i arrange for a branch
- louislandry
: The principle reasons why not is that we don't use jquery in the core. We have no plans for using jquery in the core. And it really isn't necessary to ship with the core.
- jlleblanc
media manager could use a *lot* of love and magic
- elinw
it doesn't have to be one person working on it
- louislandry
: send an email requesting it to the CMS mailing list and Sam or I will follow up
- jlleblanc
: maybe we can work together on it
- elinw
a group could decide to take it up
- nikosdion
Joseph, agree. Will catch up with you later on that
- elinw
+++ joe
and
- jlleblanc
I'd really like to see something more reusable across components. Always have people wanting images in 3PD components
- elinw
ha, i'm pushing being compuliive on that
- louislandry
Ya there is a mountain of stuff i'd like to see it do
- elinw
compulsive
and also on strings for consisent ui
- MichaelC
: it would be great to give a choice between jQuery and Mootools. It may not be possible, but I use jQuery for everything and then need to use a sledgehammer to force it into Joomla (which sucks)
- jlleblanc
thinks "great, what did I just sign up for"
- elinw
evil grin
- nikosdion
thinks the same, but that's what makes this worth it
- louislandry
: I suggest you work with a team on a jQuery plugin that can be used to achieve waht you want.
Every time the debate opens
- jlleblanc
: I prefer jQuery as well, but I support the decision to stick with MooTools.
- louislandry
someone says they are going to work with it
or on it
and it hasn't come to fruition yet
- bill_
thanks for info and allhard work that core developers are doing
- elinw
if you have the itch, scratch it
- louislandry
So take that energy and desire, and get with some people who have it too... and make it happen
- jlleblanc
++
- louislandry
I'm sure the greater community would be appreciative
- jlleblanc
I think if all of the 3PDs wanting to use jQuery can come together and agree on a standard plugin, method, etc... for incorporating jQuery, we can find a way of incorporating it more easily in Joomla
right now, everyone kind of does their own thing when it comes to jQuery and Joomla.
- elinw
you know with the student program in talking about it we really came to a focus on teams
having groupw work together
- nikosdion
The hardest part is getting together. Other than that, we'd all agree to extend JHTML to load jQuery just like it does for mooTools, I think.
- elinw
it's really a good thing
- louislandry
OK all... my time is up... have some things i need to get done this morning so I will leave it here. Thanks!
- elinw
thanks, this was fun
- nikosdion
Thank you both
- MichaelC
thanks guys!
- hils
thank you
- jlleblanc
thanks everyone
- Andy[0]
thanks for your time guys