We publish here the chat log from our first "Ask The Joomla Team" Session.
Next Session will be happen on 21st April 2010 4 UTC with Brad Baker and Louis Landry.
How Can You Join Ask the Joomla Team
You can meet us in the #joomla-ask-the-team chat room on irc.freenode.net
One very easy way to join is to visit this link: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#joomla-ask-the-team
[22:00] <Mark_Dexter> Hello everyone.
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[22:00] <rdeutz> hi mark
[22:00] <Mark_Dexter> Hi Robert.
[22:00] <SFGolfer> Thank you Mark for putting this on.
[22:00] <ThomasKahl> Hello (try to see if writing works ;-) )
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[22:00] <OnTheMarkDesign> Greetings from Southern California
[22:01] <rdeutz> should we start the first ask-the-team ?
[22:01] <SFGolfer> Greetings from San Francisco.
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[22:02] <Oceanwatcher> Hi everyone from a sunny Brazil. Keeping it on in the background until something is happening :-)
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[22:02] <ewel> hello everyone
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[22:03] <rdeutz> ok, I will try to organize this meeting a little bit
[22:03] <lafrance> good day all
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[22:04] <rdeutz> if you have a question raise you hand, first come first serve
[22:04] <rdeutz> fire free
[22:04] <SFGolfer> Lets talk about 1.6 - what's the status?
[22:04] <Mark_Dexter> Glad you asked.
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[22:05] <Mark_Dexter> We're making good progress towards a beta release, and there will be an announcement on this soon.
[22:05] <lonemamber> what does that mean in real terms
[22:05] <SullySullivan> What does "soon" mean?
[22:05] <JeffB> how soon?
[22:05] <SullySullivan> This calendar year?
[22:05] <D3vil_> why is com_comment renamed to com_social?
[22:05] <Mark_Dexter> the announcement should be within a week or two
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[22:06] <ThomasKahl> the current svn doesn't look much like a beta
[22:06] <Mark_Dexter> I'll get into trouble if I say too much more. You don't want that, do you?
[22:06] <Mark_Dexter> really?
[22:06] <AmyStephen> lol
[22:06] <SullySullivan> I like to make trouble. :)
[22:06] <Mark_Dexter> the trunk is pretty stable, I believe
[22:06] <jennifermarriott> You just posted a status update didn't you? And Hannes posted an update to the dev lists with details of what needs work?
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[22:07] <jennifermarriott> I think there was a spreadsheet
[22:07] <Mark_Dexter> almost all of the new functionality is in trunk and most of the work left is bug fixes
[22:08] <rdeutz> some pieces don't work together but it is not so much work to fix it
[22:08] <Matrikular> There are a lot of deprecated methods in the trunk, this was the case in 1.5, too and they never got out of the code base - how bout really kicking these methods out of the 1.6 and see where it bangs.
[22:08] <Matrikular> hello, btw - sorry
[22:08] <Mark_Dexter> well, we are open to feature patches. get a branch and have at it.
[22:09] <rdeutz> what is the question?
[22:09] <Mark_Dexter> if it doesn't make 1.6, it could still get in 1.7.
[22:09] <JeffB> what does it take to get your branche work accepted?
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[22:09] <skOre> Matrikular: might have something to do with backwards compatibility of extensions using those?
[22:09] <JeffB> and are branches still open to get merged into 1.6?
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[22:09] <rdeutz> good code
[22:09] <Mark_Dexter> @JeffB: Yes, but not for long.
[22:09] <JeffB> what is consdered good code?
[22:09] <Matrikular> @ skOre - deprecated methods like toFormat => now using format in jdate aso
[22:09] <Mark_Dexter> but we are going to a much shorter release cycle, as you may know
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[22:10] <skOre> @Matrikular - ah ok
[22:10] <Mark_Dexter> so that our target for 1.7 is production release of 1.6 + 6 months
[22:10] <JeffB> shorter then 2,5 years, hope so
[22:10] <rdeutz> we also
[22:10] <Mark_Dexter> so good work that doesn't make 1.6 won't have to wait that long to get in
[22:11] <Mark_Dexter> we are going to need a lot of help in the Bug Squad to get 1.6 ready
[22:11] <JeffB> but rdeutz can you explain what is consdered to be good code? trying to understand what it takes to get some stuff included into 1.6
[22:11] <Mark_Dexter> so all helpers are welcome there.
[22:11] <skOre> I think there is not much question what good code is, there is rather a question why so much seemingly good code has been rejected in the past ;)
[22:11] <gregdaynes> I hope there is plans to do more pizza, bugs and fun events
[22:11] <rdeutz> we don't put anything new in 1.6, I guess
[22:11] <Mark_Dexter> yes
[22:12] <Mark_Dexter> on the pbf
[22:12] <AmyStephen> the bug squad for 1.6 is a great way to get devs inolved - and to build from the success
[22:12] <JeffB> that is why I ask skOre, trying to understand it
[22:12] <gregdaynes> awesome
[22:12] <D3vil_> Which tasks does one have in the Bug-Squad ?
[22:12] <Mark_Dexter> that will be part of the announcement
[22:12] <lonemamber> @skore and why bad code gets accepted
[22:12] <skOre> good point
[22:12] <JeffB> :-X
[22:12] <Mark_Dexter> in the bug squad, we manage the issue tracker and fix all of the bugs
[22:13] <Mark_Dexter> so we need people to monitor the tracker, help with testing, and of course code bug fixes
[22:13] <D3vil_> issue -> fix -> bug squad take a look?
[22:13] <Mark_Dexter> ?
[22:13] <Willebil> all? You like a nice challenge I see :-D (evening btw)
[22:13] <D3vil_> hi wilco
[22:13] <rdeutz> please ask questions and don't make statements
[22:13] <Mark_Dexter> Wilco knows a little bit about the bug squad
[22:13] <Michael___> How hard has it been for extensions to adapt to the new 1.6 ACL. Is 1.6 breaking lots of them?
[22:14] <JeffB> I asked a question that is still un answered, can you please answer it?
[22:14] <OnTheMarkDesign> With the delays in getting J 1.6 out "on time", is a lack of a roadmap part of the delay?
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[22:14] <Mark_Dexter> Ok. We have two questions: Extensions for 1.6 and Delays on 1.6.
[22:14] <Mark_Dexter> Robert, do you know the answer about extensions?
[22:15] <skOre> (brb, switching workspaces)
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[22:15] <rdeutz> Not really, I know the discussion about that
[22:15] <Mark_Dexter> I know we will have documentation about adapting 1.5 extensions to 1.6
[22:15] <Mark_Dexter> but I don't know how easy or hard it will be.
[22:16] <Mark_Dexter> The new ACL is very easy to plug in to an extension, I believe.
[22:16] <Mark_Dexter> But there may be changes in the MVC that take some work.
[22:16] <Mark_Dexter> But I'm not that familiar with it at this point.
[22:16] <rdeutz> it is related to the component
[22:16] <ThomasKahl> Virtuemart will be difficult ;-) i can tell you...
[22:16] <rdeutz> complex component, complex work to integrate
[22:16] <Mark_Dexter> We want 3pd's to be able to start work soon, using the beta, so that extensions will be avaiable
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[22:17] <gregdaynes> will components be required to have support for the ACL? I mean, if my component doesn't need it, will it still function without it?
[22:17] <rdeutz> @thomasKahl yes
[22:17] <Mark_Dexter> @gregdaynes: I believe so
[22:17] <Matrikular> @gregdaynes - yes
[22:17] <lonemamber> so the docs outlining the work needed will be availble with the beta
[22:17] <bembelimen> every component needs acl, i guess....
[22:17] <Mark_Dexter> yes, that is the goal. or shortly afterwards
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[22:17] <AmyStephen> Mark - I really hope we see the project reach out to devs- and the developers *respond* to helping with the Bug Squad/Finalization - might be good to tap Wilco - see if he'll help :)
[22:18] <SullySullivan> Wasn't a Magento/Joomla bridge a GSOC project? So we can trash VM?
[22:18] <Mark_Dexter> Can I say something about the timing of 1.6 and 1.7?
[22:18] <ThomasKahl> Muhah
[22:18] <skOre> O-o
[22:18] * Willebil looks around
[22:18] <skOre> I thought we were slowly moving away from pesky bridges ;)
[22:19] <AmyStephen> please do Mark !
[22:19] <Mark_Dexter> We are making a fundamental change in the way we do new versions, starting a while ago.
[22:19] <rdeutz> the plan is the release 1.7 in 6 months after 1.6 stable
[22:19] <Mark_Dexter> We are adapting a stable trunk strategy
[22:19] <ewel> i read someone in osm said let's do 1.6 before we start discussing 1.7 but if 1.7 is only 1.6+6months away as was said just now, then isn't it time to start discussing 1.7 !?
[22:19] <Mark_Dexter> what that means is that, at any time, the trunk is stable enough for a release
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[22:20] <rdeutz> let us do the first rc
[22:20] <Mark_Dexter> so, going forward, we plan to do time-based releases, instead of feature-based releases
[22:20] <AmyStephen> YEA! Mark - that is good IMO
[22:20] <Mark_Dexter> what that means is that release 1.7 at a point in time, and whatever feature are in, those are the 1.7 features
[22:21] <Mark_Dexter> so we can plan the releases, and the features can slide if they aren't ready
[22:21] <skOre> very good! that will also make it easier to keep up with upcoming releases when you build extensions.
[22:21] <Mark_Dexter> so, the clock will start ticking for 1.7 as soon as 1.6 is production released
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[22:21] <AmyStephen> WP does that - and it makes it very predictable for users
[22:21] <kosse> nice
[22:21] <SullySullivan> That's a very positive development; how will intermediate security releases be handled?
[22:21] <rdeutz> @JeffB, can you repeat your question, please
[22:21] <Mark_Dexter> also, we are going to make it much easier for devs to contribute
[22:22] <SFGolfer> A pattern has been developing in the Community that people are anxious and feel somewhat slighted that development is taking a long time since the last major release was three years ago. I read somewhere that some members with projects destined for Joomla decided to abandon Joomla for another (unnamed) CMS with established ACL.
[22:22] <pentacle> so mark, what's the discussed features for 1.7?
[22:22] <Mark_Dexter> this has been Louis' top priority for a while now
[22:22] <ewel> has that decision to move to time based releases been discussed in the forums or is it an internal decision?
[22:22] <kosse> yes he reacted positively to David's idea
[22:22] <Mark_Dexter> I don't know the 1.7 features. If you have been following the CMS list, you saw that there was some discussion about a new process for discussing features.
[22:22] <JeffB> it almost takes 6 months to do 1.5.16, what is going to be changed to make sure this is not just a good plan on paper?
[22:23] <AmyStephen> @jeffB - maybe our help?
[22:23] <Mark_Dexter> @JeffB: That is a very good point. And the answer is that we have to stick to the stable trunk methodology
[22:23] <Mark_Dexter> otherwise it will just be empty talk.
[22:23] <Michael___> How difficult is the upgrade from 1.5 to 1.6?
[22:23] <JeffB> 1.5 is stable
[22:23] <Mark_Dexter> The risk with the time-based releases is that there aren't many new features
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[22:24] <Mark_Dexter> On the upgrade, I think it will be easy for core and will depend on the extensions.
[22:24] <Mark_Dexter> But again I'm not expert on this subject.
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[22:24] <D3vil_> 1.5.16 is a good point , JeffB . Hope we se a 1.5.16 :)
[22:24] <skOre> well, as long as new features are introduced early and a specified amount of time is spent just on getting all into shape, it should work out
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[22:24] <gregdaynes> will 1.6 - can we still use the 1.5 way of doing forms and elements - or will we be required to move to the jform?
[22:25] <gregdaynes> with 1.6*
[22:25] <Mark_Dexter> I don't think you are required to use JForm, but I'm not sure.
[22:25] <rdeutz> JParameter is depreciated
[22:25] <Mark_Dexter> well, we have JRegistry instead
[22:25] <Mark_Dexter> I think it covers all of the functionality
[22:26] <bembelimen> why does joomla 1.6 use the native php ini_parser (parse_ini_string), which is
[22:26] <bembelimen> 1. declared as _parameter_ parser
[22:26] <bembelimen> 2. not constructed for language files
[22:26] <bembelimen> 3. very unhandy (<font color="_QQ_"red"_QQ_">)
[22:26] <bembelimen> 4. force to use the strings like "constants" like JFIELD_ACCESS_DESC which are unreadable, if the language file for this component does not exist
[22:26] <SFGolfer> WP has a dedicated development area with release dates for their forthcoming major release and not a confusing Google area with a spreadsheet serving as the latest method to update the Community. Can Joomla do the same to better inform the general public in everyday talk and not in developer talk?
[22:26] <Mark_Dexter> @SFGolfer: We will be releasing a new developer site shortly. HOpefully that will help with this.
[22:27] <rdeutz> @bembelimen we are only 2 to answer if anyone fire 10 question .....
[22:27] <skOre> can you talk about the content and goal of that developer site?
[22:28] <bembelimen> rdeutz that's one question....
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> we want to make it very easy, for example, for any dev to create a branch and start coding.
[22:28] <bembelimen> with 4 cons, why you shouldn't use this parser
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> all they have to do is sign the jca
[22:28] <kosse> +1 MarK
[22:28] <Gerlof> What do you mean by 'shortly' ;) ?
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> days, weeks
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> I believe
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> (but I thought it was days 3 weeks ago...)
[22:28] <Mark_Dexter> but very soon
[22:28] <Gerlof> LOL
[22:28] <AmyStephen> mark - agree on goal and ease to get access - what is trickier is brainstorming the future and getting a vision together
[22:28] <JeffB> i still did not get an asnwer on what good code is, and how a branche gets included...I am not working my ass off, not knowing if this will get included....so back to my question @ rdeutz
[22:29] <Mark_Dexter> the other part of this is to have everything a dev needs in one place.
[22:29] <Gerlof> Keep up the good work - have to leave! Bye
[22:29] <kosse> Fotis had a nice vision
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[22:29] <Mark_Dexter> @JeffB: well, one way is to discuss on list and see what level of support there is for the feature.
[22:29] <elkuku> PUSH: [15:26:05] <bembelimen> why does joomla 1.6 use the native php ini_parser (parse_ini_string), which is...
[22:29] <Mark_Dexter> If there is a lot of support, you can get advice on the best way to do it.
[22:29] <Mark_Dexter> Then you can ask people to test it in your branch.
[22:30] <Mark_Dexter> The more you get people interested, the better chance something has.
[22:30] <skOre> have you considered switching to something like git for that?
[22:30] <Mark_Dexter> But we need to improve the process for managing proposed enhancements.
[22:30] <Mark_Dexter> I think we are pretty committed to SVN.
[22:30] <AmyStephen> ++
[22:30] <skOre> juggling branches can be a pain in svn
[22:30] <rdeutz> @JeffB if you are developer you know what good code is, you will not get a yes we will use it before we can take a look at what you have created
[22:30] <Mark_Dexter> It supports working in branches very well.
[22:30] <Mark_Dexter> I'm not an expert on this, but I understand that there are problems with git.
[22:31] <JeffB> that is not really an helpfull answer @ rdeutz
[22:31] <Mark_Dexter> Probably a better question for Louis or Sam, tough.
[22:31] <Mark_Dexter> though
[22:31] <Mark_Dexter> lol
[22:31] <Oceanwatcher> Are there any changes to how multilanguages are handled? Still using .ini files?
[22:31] <elkuku> PUSH AGAIN : [15:26:05] <bembelimen> why does joomla 1.6 use the native php ini_parser (parse_ini_string), which is...
[22:31] <JeffB> a lot of good GSOC code never got included, and I don't know why
[22:31] <skOre> +1
[22:31] <Mark_Dexter> @Oceanwatcher: There is a big change in ini files.
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[22:31] <Mark_Dexter> We use the native parser because it is MUCH faster
[22:32] <JeffB> so don't give answers like I am stupid please
[22:32] <rdeutz> @JeffB but the only one I can give you
[22:32] <Mark_Dexter> Ian benchmarked some stuff and found out that 50% of the time was parsing ini files
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[22:32] <Mark_Dexter> so using the native parser makes a big difference
[22:32] <bembelimen> so speed is more important than usability?
[22:32] <Mark_Dexter> (that is my understanding, at least...)
[22:32] <elkuku> i think the price for this speed improvement is extremely high, making it harder for 3pds AND translators..
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[22:33] <skOre> @JeffB - mind your manners please, nobody said that you're stupid
[22:33] <rdeutz> @ini_parser, IIRC there was a discussion on the google list
[22:33] <Oceanwatcher> Any chance of moving to what I think is referred to pot files for languages? There are som very nice tools available for doing translations with those files as they are used in a lot of projects.
[22:33] <AmyStephen> jeffb - please keep it friendly
[22:33] <Mark_Dexter> well, this is the type of thing to bring up on list
[22:33] <JeffB> that was not a friendly answer to me to be honest
[22:33] <elkuku> Oceanwatcher: +1
[22:33] <SFGolfer> Why 1.6? Why not go straight to 2.0 since this is a major release?
[22:33] <AmyStephen> @jeffb - k - thanks
[22:34] <kosse> ok, but get over it, you had good questions ;)
[22:34] <skOre> yeah, would like to hear the GSOC question answered in particular
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[22:34] <Mark_Dexter> @SFGolfer: we had a big discussion about that, and there was a difference of opinion.
[22:35] <Mark_Dexter> I think it was felt that 2.0 was reserved for a new release with a separate framework.
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[22:35] <Mark_Dexter> so we decided to stay with 1.6
[22:35] <SFGolfer> Speaking of GSOC - do you think the delayed 1.6 may have been the reason Joomla was not accepted?
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[22:35] <rdeutz> we can do 1.6 this year and 2.0 in 2012, your choice
[22:35] <Mark_Dexter> I woudl like to know how they went from 1.0 to 1.5. (lol)
[22:35] <Mark_Dexter> @SFGolfer: No
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[22:35] <kosse> Yes they said that last year in the Netherlands
[22:35] <lonemamber> the big problem with getting new code accepted will still be that its other devs decding on it based on unknown factors and not based on a published roadmap
[22:35] <AmyStephen> don't ask mark - it wasn't pretty
[22:35] * JeffB shrugs
[22:35] <SullySullivan> whoa what? Joomla isn't in GSOC this year?
[22:35] <jennifermarriott> The delay had nothing to do with GSoC this year
[22:36] <Mark_Dexter> Correct.
[22:36] <SullySullivan> i'm so behind.
[22:36] <kosse> that's why they open it so the gsoc com in directly (the branches)
[22:37] <Mark_Dexter> we hope the process for 1.7 features will be more open
[22:37] <Mark_Dexter> that is the goal
[22:37] <kosse> cool
[22:37] <skOre> well, I don't care how pretty or not it was, after we have seen so little of the previous GSOC code being put into the actual software, you end up with far more questions if something like the latest drop happens
[22:37] <Matrikular> @gsoc: well, a lot of gsoc work and development found its way into the code so ... if in one year its less than the years before ... doesnt have to mean there wont be future commitments from there
[22:37] <coder4life> Will current Joomla templates work on Joomla 1.6, the team mentioned that structure for templates was simliar?
[22:37] <Matrikular> acl, contact component, nested sets aso
[22:38] <AmyStephen> we really have never moved GSOC code into core, to the best of my knowledge - not sure why
[22:38] <jennifermarriott> lots of gsoc has been utilized in a lot of different ways over the years
[22:38] <Mark_Dexter> @coder4life: I'm not sure. Can someone speak about 1.6 templates?
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[22:38] <jennifermarriott> it just may not have gone in as the project was finalized at the time when the program ended
[22:38] <jennifermarriott> in exactly the same form
[22:38] <rdeutz> we have changed the 1.6 output
[22:38] <skOre> @AmyStephen - that was my impression as well, might be wrong though
[22:39] <rdeutz> so I think 1.5 templated will work with the 1.5 overwrites
[22:39] <kosse> nice the template thing
[22:39] <coder4life> Ok thanks rdeutz
[22:39] <jennifermarriott> How is the finalization of com_content going? Is there a status update on that?
[22:39] * Willebil can confirm very little from GSOC went into core into the past, and he knows part of the reason
[22:39] <rdeutz> but you have to change the template when you will run the 1.6 output model
[22:40] <Mark_Dexter> com_content is very close to complete. lots of bugs to fix
[22:40] <Mark_Dexter> but it basically works
[22:40] <kosse> how much change?
[22:40] * skOre is still sick every time he hears "something happened, somebody knows why, nobody will ever know"
[22:40] <kosse> lol
[22:40] <skOre> this happens FAR too often around Joomla
[22:40] <Mark_Dexter> in 1.6, com_content is similar. a few small improvements
[22:41] <skOre> we are adults, we can handle a lot ;)
[22:41] <jennifermarriott> skore I suggest then you discuss it with the person making the statemetns
[22:41] <elkuku> Willebil: could you share your knowledge, pls ;)
[22:41] <coder4life> Im guessing one of the major tasks to complete is documentation, besides bugs obviously
[22:41] <Mark_Dexter> yes!
[22:41] <rdeutz> you can ask him directly, i guess
[22:41] <jennifermarriott> and spare us the drama so we can get back to the last 15 minutes of this session with Mark and Robert
[22:41] <skOre> @jennifermarriott not sure I care about this one in particular, was just remarking about a common attitude
[22:41] <D3vil_> rdeutz: an 1.5 Template without overrides will work in 1.6 "native" ?
[22:42] <OnTheMarkDesign> @coder4life Ding Ding Ding Question of the Day
[22:42] <Mark_Dexter> especially the new stuff, like acl, we will need good docs for.
[22:42] <rdeutz> yes, but it looks messy
[22:42] <AmyStephen> jennifer - please be friendly!
[22:42] <kosse> Robert, how much changes from 1.5 templates to 1.6 are we looking at? (more or less)
[22:42] <rdeutz> cool down
[22:42] <Willebil> I can explain, but at the end of the session if that is ok
[22:43] <rdeutz> 1+
[22:43] <Willebil> there is a perfect rationalle behind that
[22:43] <skOre> @Willebil looking forward to that then
[22:43] <D3vil_> rdeutz: messy means we need some work in css?
[22:43] <rdeutz> all tables are gone
[22:43] <Willebil> you do not have to agree, but at least understanding it will might help...
[22:43] <kosse> good thing about tables
[22:43] <rdeutz> we have new views/layout
[22:43] <D3vil_> ah ok rdeutz
[22:44] <coder4life> What kind of documentation do we need, code or help topic documentation?
[22:44] <rdeutz> so you need some time
[22:44] <Mark_Dexter> both
[22:44] <Mark_Dexter> both types of docs
[22:44] <coder4life> I could look into help :D
[22:44] <Mark_Dexter> great!
[22:44] <Mark_Dexter> contact chris davenport
[22:44] <coder4life> Thanks Mark
[22:44] <ewel> on speed, is it true 1.6 is slower than 1.5?
[22:45] <kosse> time :) ok, seems reasonable, thx for ur answer
[22:45] <D3vil_> thx rdeutz
[22:45] <Mark_Dexter> @ewel: it's too soon to say
[22:45] <coder4life> @Ewel I will disagree there, I saw a significant speed improvement
[22:45] <D3vil_> one last question: why is Beez 2.0 not in joomla 1.6 ?
[22:45] <Mark_Dexter> there is no reason to think it should be significantly slower
[22:45] <Mark_Dexter> beez will be in 1.6
[22:45] <Willebil> initial test indeed show 1.6 is slower, but I am still profiling some stuff
[22:45] <ewel> i have no opinion myself, just wondering, and it seems important
[22:45] <jennifermarriott> Beez is in a branch to test
[22:45] <AmyStephen> still pretty earlier for performance testing - but it does test slower
[22:45] <jennifermarriott> and it looks wonderful btw
[22:45] <D3vil_> beez or beez2 ?
[22:45] <Mark_Dexter> beez2
[22:46] <jennifermarriott> beez2 sorry
[22:46] <Willebil> which is not strange, ACL adds something to that for sure
[22:46] <D3vil_> okay thx
[22:46] <Mark_Dexter> or whatever it ends up being called
[22:46] <kosse> isn't there a cache thing about speed going on?
[22:46] <AmyStephen> jennifer - is beez2 going in?
[22:46] <rdeutz> for ACL and the nested set you need some more sql
[22:46] <jennifermarriott> it is in a branch to test and Mark just stated it will be in 1.6
[22:46] <jennifermarriott> I have no reason to disagree with Mark on that point Amy
[22:46] <pierregazzola> some users were asking if there will be option to have J 1.6 without ACL
[22:46] <AmyStephen> good to hear!
[22:46] <bembelimen> 1 query for nested sets instead of "n" queries with the old categoy system......
[22:46] <Mark_Dexter> @pierregazzola: no
[22:47] <Willebil> 20% of the time atm is spend with loading classes, implementing full lazy loading would gain at least around 10-15%....as said, still studying that part
[22:47] <lonemamber> @pierre thats called joomla 1.5
[22:47] <pierregazzola> thanks
[22:47] <Mark_Dexter> acl is part of 1.6
[22:47] <rdeutz> yes but acl needs some more sqls
[22:47] <Mark_Dexter> however, the default acl setup for 1.6 mimics 1.5
[22:47] <Mark_Dexter> so you can use it pretty much like 1.5
[22:47] <AmyStephen> @jennifer - had to look up - did not see mark said that - glad to hear it's in
[22:48] <lonemamber> the setup but not the code so still needs the extra queries
[22:48] <rdeutz> the basic acl configuration is like 1.5
[22:48] <AmyStephen> be interesting to see how folks respond to the ACL - lots of buttons and whistles
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[22:48] <Mark_Dexter> @Amy: we will probably get good feedback on the ui to make it better for 1.7.
[22:49] <ThomasKahl> Something completely different: OSM Budget: why is there still nearly 50% of the total income for 2010 spent for "Legal & professional Fees"?
[22:49] <Mark_Dexter> maybe someone will write a great admin extension for an improved acl ui.
[22:49] <AmyStephen> yup - learning to work with it in building sites will help
[22:49] <Willebil> Maybe an idea to ask a uni to do a usability test, and based on that improve the UI?
[22:49] <AmyStephen> good idea wilco!
[22:49] <rdeutz> we are working 5 years to put acl in joomla, give us 2 or 3 version to find the best solution :-)
[22:49] <AmyStephen> rotfl
[22:49] <Mark_Dexter> yes. we are trying to do some usability testing as part of JSOP (Joomla! Student Outreach Program)
[22:50] <SFGolfer> The ACL cannot be so filled with bells and whistles to confuse the community; otherwise, the forums will be busy with ACL "how to" questions.
[22:50] <AmyStephen> ok robert - but after 3 tries...
[22:50] <skOre> lol
[22:50] <JeffB> JSOP, can you give an url where I can read what that is?
[22:50] <Mark_Dexter> sure
[22:50] <Mark_Dexter> Here is the projects wiki:
[22:50] <Mark_Dexter> https://docs.joomla.org/Joomla!_Student_Outreach_Program_Project_Ideas
[22:50] <Mark_Dexter> there will be more announcements soon.
[22:51] <Mark_Dexter> we have a great group of mentors
[22:51] <Mark_Dexter> all we need is students!
[22:51] <lonemamber> [21:55] <ThomasKahl> Something completely different: OSM Budget: why is there still nearly 50% of the total income for 2010 spent for "Legal & professional Fees"?
[22:51] <AmyStephen> mark - you have been busy building great documentation for 1.6 - and i very much appreciate it - the dev doc is also getting much better
[22:51] <jconsultingza> @ ThomasKahl: I think we should perhaps have the OSM questions on a different session
[22:52] <Mark_Dexter> @Amy: thanks. We're trying.
[22:52] <Mark_Dexter> part of making it easy for devs to contribute is good dev docs.
[22:52] <AmyStephen> very much appreciated - u r right - that helps dev learn
[22:53] <gregdaynes> is JSoP only open to students?
[22:53] <ewel> ok another set of questions for osm i have is: to whom can i make suggestions about how minutes can be improved? are they collectively approved? are agendas known in advance? btw great that they are published!
[22:53] <jmcameron> @Mark thanks for your work on 1.6!
[22:53] <Mark_Dexter> yw
[22:53] <kosse> thank you guys for all your work, enjoyed the chat and your answers cya /Marcos
[22:53] <jennifermarriott> if you are not a student Greg you can mentor a student
[22:53] <JeffB> jconsultingza: why could that not be a valid question here and now?
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[22:54] <rdeutz> missed that question about "Legal & professional Fees" that includes also developing so it is not only legal and devs need bread and butter
[22:54] <rdeutz> it is valid
[22:54] <ewel> @jacques do you mean my question or the one about legal budgets?
[22:54] <Mark_Dexter> I think all questions are valid. But we not be able to answer them...
[22:55] <jennifermarriott> well can those questions be answered in the 4 minutes left to the session?
[22:55] <rdeutz> @ ewel, you can send me an email
[22:55] <ewel> ok will do.. pls give me your address to save me time looking it up :)
[22:56] <gregdaynes> @jennifermarriott - I am not a student, but i am pretty sure i don't qualify as a mentor.
[22:56] <jconsultingza> @ ewel: Minutes are approved by the boad as a whole. More detailed minutes will be available from the next meeting (meant the budget question)
[22:56] <Oceanwatcher> Mark_Dexter: I am still wondering about the files for multiple languages.
[22:56] <ewel> thanks jacques
[22:56] <Oceanwatcher> Have the pot files (in lack of a more correct expression) been discussed?
[22:56] * AmyStephen thinks robert has an interesting email address.
[22:56] <Mark_Dexter> I don't know.
[22:56] <Mark_Dexter> @Oceanwatcher. I don't know if pot files have been discussed.
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[22:57] <Mark_Dexter> I know that Jean-Marie is very knowledgable about this area.
[22:57] <jmcameron> Who is doing the installer updates?
[22:57] <rdeutz> @amy ?
[22:57] <Mark_Dexter> Sam, I think. Perhaps others as well.
[22:57] <Oceanwatcher> Mark_Dexter: Ok. I will try to get in touch with him. Thx.
[22:57] <Mark_Dexter> afaik, sam is the expert on the installer
[22:58] <rdeutz> last question ....
[22:58] <AmyStephen> @robert - sk0re made a joke about finding email addresses with your "fake" email address/was responding to him
[22:58] <elkuku> Oceanwatcher: you may find infograf in #joomla-dev ;)
[22:59] <Mark_Dexter> infograf = Jean-Marie
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[22:59] <skOre> @rdeutz & @AmyStephen - I kid, I kid!
[22:59] <skOre> ;)
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[22:59] <AmyStephen> lol
[23:00] <Mark_Dexter> is there going to be a log of this chat?
[23:00] * skOre has pidgin on auto-save everything
[23:00] <AmyStephen> yes - let's save it mark for others - good idea
[23:00] <OnTheMarkDesign> It seems that only 1 hour isn't sufficient.....
[23:00] <jennifermarriott> can we limit this chat the the sessions themselves
[23:00] <Mark_Dexter> i can stay for a bit longer if needed
[23:00] <AmyStephen> 1 hour is perfect - mark and robert did a great job!
[23:00] <Mark_Dexter> and we'll have another one soon
[23:01] <Matrikular> i figure a big topic on the mailing list is to improve further (3rdparty) development by including / coding / using [your fav framework here] in future joomla releases. of course this might be a question which there isnt a real answer for in here but ill give it a try anyway: how is joomla focusing on state of the art coding methods in the future and isnt a half year schedule a bit short to implement such key features in the fr
[23:01] <Oceanwatcher> elkuku: Thx :-)
[23:01] <rdeutz> thanks everyone !!!
[23:01] <Mark_Dexter> @Matrikular: Great question.
[23:01] <JeffB> if you are a developer, you know what state of the art is
[23:01] <JeffB> else ask rdeutz , he knows
[23:01] <AmyStephen> indeed - awesome question matrikular
[23:01] <Mark_Dexter> Well, one thing is that we are emphasizing automated testing. Both unit tests and system tests.
[23:02] <Mark_Dexter> We see this as a key strategy going forward.
[23:02] <SullySullivan> May I say a word about the Joomla! Community Magazine?
[23:02] <Mark_Dexter> the goal is to have 100% code coverage for the tests.
[23:02] <Willebil> chill JeffB
[23:02] <rdeutz> @JeffB you have my email, if you have a question ask, I will give my best to answer
[23:02] <skOre> @JeffB - lol, that sarcasm barely dripped out of my laptop!
[23:02] <JeffB> no private things, we are here to discuss things in the open
[23:03] <Mark_Dexter> The second point I want to make about the 6 months schedule is that this is a continuous process.
[23:03] <AmyStephen> @jeffb - robert's great - please be friendly - we are trying to move forward
[23:03] <Mark_Dexter> The key element is that the trunk is ALWAYS stable.
[23:03] <Mark_Dexter> so we can move forward incrementally without breaking things.
[23:03] <Mark_Dexter> that is why testing is such a key.
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[23:03] <Mark_Dexter> it tells us when we break something.
[23:04] <Mark_Dexter> Hopefully that answers at least part of the question.
[23:04] <SullySullivan> Hils Cheyne and Neri Valentin-Macias have been leading an effort to re-energize the Joomla! Community Magazine. A series of articles about the major template frameworks is planned.
[23:04] <rdeutz> as you like
[23:04] <JeffB> AmyStephen: cheerleading does not help, i just repeat what he said...i know it makes me look silly, but I just quote someone else here
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[23:04] <ThomasKahl> Who writes unit tests? Are they available somewhere?
[23:04] <Mark_Dexter> They are part of the svn download
[23:04] <Matrikular> @THomas, have a look in the trunk
[23:04] <Mark_Dexter> and anyone can contribute unit tests
[23:04] <ThomasKahl> Ooops, didn't see them yet ;-)
[23:04] <AmyStephen> jeffb - not cheering - just telling you to shape up.
[23:05] <Matrikular> i guess wilco did some blog stuff about it ? correct me
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[23:05] <Mark_Dexter> there are also some docs about how to run them.
[23:05] <jconsultingza> @ Mark: does that mean that extensions would not require changes (or big changes) from 1.6 to 1.7 to 1.8 ?
[23:05] <Mark_Dexter> we need better docs for how to write unit tests.
[23:05] <jennifermarriott> That sounds great @SullySullivan
[23:05] <Matrikular> +1 @ Mark_Dexter
[23:05] <Willebil> @ Matrikular yes I did
[23:05] <Mark_Dexter> @jconsultingza: as a general answer, yes. 1.7 should be very similar to 1.6 and will not require huge changes.
[23:05] <SullySullivan> Thanks for the encouragement jennifermarriott
[23:06] <Willebil> full fledged series of articles on continious integration on jfoobar
[23:06] <Matrikular> goto jfoobar.dot for more infos on unit testing ;-)
[23:06] <Matrikular> and profiling ?!, was it =D
[23:07] <jennifermarriott> Mark is there docs available that help people understand unit tests and how to write them?
[23:07] <Rafael> thanks for doing this, everyone. look forward to seeing the chat log posted somewhere official once you close the room. cheers!
[23:07] <Willebil> yes, just a quiky since I have very little time to write blogs lately due to traveling, but I plan more
[23:07] <D3vil_> jfoobar has no (?) article since xmas
[23:07] <AmyStephen> agree with @rafael - thank you very much team - going to take off now, too - mark and robert especiall - thanks
[23:07] <OnTheMarkDesign> Thanks Robert and Mark
[23:07] <Willebil> one D3vil_ and it was about profiling ;-)
[23:08] <D3vil_> ah okay :=)
[23:08] <jennifermarriott> sorry I didn't see that you had answered that Mark... silly me
[23:08] <Mark_Dexter> np
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[23:08] <Matrikular> profiler, the ones in the tv, ... you know
[23:08] == AmyStephen has quit
[23:08] <Mark_Dexter> ok. bye everyone.
[23:08] <jennifermarriott> Thanks Mark
[23:08] <Matrikular> cheers, thx so far
[23:08] <rdeutz> bye
[23:08] <D3vil_> bye and thx to the team
[23:08] == pierregazzola [~lafrance@freenode/sponsor/lafrance] has left #joomla-ask-the-team ["The future of work consists of learning a living.|Marshall McLuhan||"]
[23:08] <jennifermarriott> thanks Robert